If is a new unfired barrel, it is best to break it in "30 to 60 rounds". The benefits are not limited to only these attributes, nitriding also offers a lower coefficient of friction. 4-seat luxury car, or a 6-seat family sedan to suit changing times. Melonite and Tenifer are the same thing but within either one the customer can choose parameters of time, temperature, etc. Tenifer and Melonite are trade names for firearm finishing processes that involve salt bath nitriding. One place on autos where salt bath nitriding is often used is on the piston of those little air springs that hold up hoods and hatchback windows. I'm building a custom rifle (6.5 x 55 s) with a Mexican Short Action Mauser model 98. My understanding of this salt nitriding acid bath process is that it doesn't translate well to stainless alloys, that it actually weakens their ability to withstand corrosion? Recently he has been working with MMi - Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. The main difference between the Tenifer and Melonite processes is a matter of splitting hairs. regards. Lately he has been doing the job with MMi – Trutec on a salt-bath nitriding process. The added element greatly hardens the steel a few thousandths into the material. I'm not saying you are wrong, but I am saying that we've received countless postings saying "the EPA doesn't allow . A. The material is used for crankshafts, suspension parts and whatnot--exposed to stresses not unlike guns. I want to know if the action (DWM) can be put through this process with out harm to it. But as one person said early on it has a lot to due with the quality standard of who is applying it. If you coat bullets with moly or HBN, you will lose 50 to 100fps due to the lubricity.. My before and after FPS test with these barrel dropped 60FPS with the same load... Also, a nice thing is on the bolt, with the RC as hard as 70, it feels like glass on glass.. it really soothed it out.. It remains a popular case hardening technique because it offers: Lap the bore and scrub out the chamber good. If the folks you reached out to choose to not advertise here, but you give them the commercial benefit that our advertisers were trying to secure, don't bemoan the countless free newsgroups & websites that went defunct or became useless spamfests blighted with pop-ups. Regards. A. So help me out guys. Salt Bath Nitriding. I do not have any special inside information, but I believe that Glock will not let the supplier license the Tenifer name to any other firearms manufacturer; therefore, other firearms manufacturers are using a similar finish but from other chemical suppliers or under different tradenames. The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. These processes are categorized as molten salt bath ferritic nitrocarburizing. We've eased the rule from time to time, but usually quickly regretted it; it starts with an honest recommendation of a vendor, but quickly escalates to sales people posting glowing testimonials of themselves, using fictitious names and pretending to be satisfied customers :-) Providing consistent high quality products and services to our customers at competitive prices, while being in strict compliance with all environmental, safety and health regulations. The resulting surface is very smooth and extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. Inconsistencies in the thickness of the chrome lining can result in … I know this because I currently regulate 2 such processes right here in Springfield, Ohio. We Ultra Sonic dip clean every gun that comes in the door to make sure they are 100% clean inside and out so we have no imperfections in the nitride.". Q. Figure 2: Cross section of 1018 steel after QPQ ® salt bath nitriding, showing the hard and wear resistant compound layer of iron nitride … And the advertisers we need to provide a free forum become hard to find if we spend their money steering potential customers away from them and towards their competitors who are riding for free. In fact SAAB of Sweden once used the same process for it's cam and crankshafts. If it can be refinished, what is the best way to find a reputable company that will do a good job? Thanks, Michael. Salt bath nitride entails immersing the barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in what we commonly call “nitride”. The process delivers hardened metal casings. A. The trade name and patented processes may vary slightly from the general description, but they are all a form of ferritic nitrocarburizing. It is also known as Liquid/Salt Bath Ferritic Nitrocarburizing (FNC) process. Thanks !!! The hallmark of salt bath nitriding is the bath of molten salt (usually cyanide or other salts) into which parts are submerged. Q. Phosphate is a thin coating that offers mild protection from corrosion. Post-processing - It is important to thoroughly clean your barrel again before you resume shooting. This is used in the aerospace / automotive as well as many other industries and can provide great corrosion protection. A friend of mine has carried both guns concealed and his Glock 26 never rusted, but his M&P 9 compact did? The chemicals/salts utilized for the MELONITE are different than the ones utilized for Arcor - the former process predates the latter and both are registered trademarks of … Unlike chrome lining where the chrome is built up on the surface, nitriding converts the surface with out the risk dimensional build up causing fitment and function issues.". A no-registration-required forum naturally draws them. Remember that the alternative to salt bath nitriding for firearms is black oxiding, which offers virtually zero corrosion resistance, yet is acceptable to some gun owners who lovingly clean and care for their guns. Filippo. All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). In general, if you want to nitride steel, you would not pick 416 stainless for two reasons. Joel Kendrick is a two-time IBS 600-yard Benchrest Shooter of the Year. My only concern is that a Melonite barrel should be very very precisely cut using the sharpest possible carbide tools as to leave as little of tool marks as possible. Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015. My personal Belgian made Browning High Power is fully coated. Now some more wet patchs to clean that out, they should be black but should feel as smooth or smoother then when you sent the gun in. Therefore he looked around and added the best technology available to do the best job. I assume they do this both for an even look and for additional corrosion protection. that have been in error. If you need a product/service, please check these Directories: Jobshops Capital Equip. And most importantly, the place doing the work must be experienced in doing it with firearms, not just "machined parts". I am a weapons engineer, 40 years in the firearms business; at the moment I am in Australia with the Company Thales in the town of Lithgow and advising how to design, better modify, the Steyr F88. I know melonite is just a brand name for a particular salt bath nitride process/ product, and it works by chemically changing the makeup of the surface, as opposed to … It does not shrink or enlarge the bore at all. I believe the Tenifer/Melonite is the resulting finish. Both guns i have done this to get zero copper fowling, i just took my 260 in the pics to a 1200y shoot the other day and put 125 123amax @ 3250fps down the tube... no fouling.. havent cleaned it and put another 75 down, still no copper.. Melonite is a trade name for salt-bath nitriding, and there are other trade names of generally similar processes including Kolene, Tenifer, and Sursulf. Regards, A. I am a technical adviser for firearms industry work, and full time weapons designer and custom rifle builder, and I can assure you that the process can be used on both Button and Hammer Forged barrels. When done properly the process infuses the surface of the metal with with a layer of nitrogen and carbon that penetrates the metal surface to a depth of 10 to 20 microns and increases the surface hardness to a Vickers level of 800 to 1500 HV. The process starts with a standard salt bath nitrocarburizing cycle, which produces a layer of ε iron nitride. The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR ®, MELONITE ® and TUFFTRIDE ®. Tennifer, melonite, armornite, etc. Salt bath nitriding is a case hardening process that leaves a fairly thick, corrosion resistant, hard surface. Melonite is a form of nitriding. I will give him credit for taking a very traditional industry and introducing a great product using simplicity and light weight materials (Original patents for many of Glock's design were filed in the 40's, years ahead of its time) In regard to OEM barrels I will tell you that it actually seems to improve accuracy as it does function as a stress relief process. How different - I have no idea. Melonite ® Salt Bath Nitriding. I sold that gun and put my Glock 34 in my trunk. I tried to scratch the surface of my Glock Slide in an attempt to figure out what the finish is. It is a thermochemical diffusion process whereby nitrogen-bearing salts generate a controlled release of nitrogen at the interface of a ferrous part. I believe you are right there at the heart of the matter. Two or three weeks later I checked it out to find several patches of rust on the slide. Sign in|Recent Site Activity|Report Abuse|Print Page|Powered By Google Sites. A. How Google uses data when you visit this site. "palette": { Black Nitride goes by a few names, Ferritic Nitrocarburizing, Melonite, SBN "salt bath nitriding", QCP and Tenifer, that are all names for the same thing, the only difference would be Tenifer, this process is used in Europe with a different cyanide formulation bath "EPA wont allow that in the US". } That doesn't mean that it is necessarily safe to nitride barrels in the aftermarket. A. I am often involved in arguments regarding the these two finishes on Smith & Wesson and Walther forums. Robinson arms and many many more... they know guns.. And that's whats important. Despite the naming the process is a modified form of nitriding and not carburizing. Does the rust proofing resistance of the Tenifer or Melonite treatment process result from the fact the Fe is tied up with N and C as an ironcarbonitride and therefore not available to react with O2 to form rust FExOx? if you ask for flat, it will look like these. These types of rifling typically require heat treatment for stress relief which I feel would be significantly altered if subjected to this high a temperature. The facility we selected is located in the Mid West (no secret there) and let's not give Gaston Glock too much credit, the Tenifer finish has been used by the German automotive industry for years, including BMW and Mercedes. Some of the things I found doing the research.. H&M was started in 1948 and has been family owned since, The do work for the large car companies, GE , NASCAR and a bunch of others listed on their page. I have been told by one manufacturer that the bores go out of round. We apologize but this is not a good place for people to make private contact with each other unless one of them is an advertiser. The resulting surface is extremely hard which makes it very resistant to wear and corrosion. I had a few long calls with the General Manager, Shade McMillen to gather info before having work done there.. I wish this forum allowed us to publish e-mail addresses. See our Line of Nitride BCG's. Q. The method features the transfer via diffusion of carbon and nitrogen from the molten salt to the surface of a steel part. Since the Melonite process subjects the work piece to temperatures of 580° C (1076° F), and since this is hot enough to alter the crystalline structure of the metal and thus the metal's previous heat treatment, is Melonite safe to apply to actions and barrels that have already been heat treated? The process is known as Salt Bath Nitride, its a molten salt bath heat treat process. A fair amount of internet searching have not helped in finding people with experience in having guns refinished with Melonite. A discussion started in Salt bath nitriding is far better than black oxide, but that doesn't make it better than auto paint. Fabulous for bolt carrier groups, actions, and slides. http://www.superiorbarrels.com/Barrel%20Testing/Barrel%20Testing.htm. It is anecdotal, but where I've seen a barrel where a round was fired into an obstructed barrel (the shot after the squibb) - the GLOCK OEM barrel has never split - only bulged; while stainless steel aftermarket barrels (of the same dimensions) usually split. My employers plant does a lot of rifle barrels for major OEM contracts so if it were a problem we would know. Joined: Aug 24, 2008 Messages: 1,231. "background": "#fff", The terms "Liquid Nitriding" and "Salt Bath Nitriding" are used interchangeably, and include commercial processes known as QPQ, ARCOR®, MELONITE®and TUFFTRIDE®. Glock applies a spray-on finish over the nitrided steel. Melonite Processing : Salt™ Bath Nitriding System are all trademarked types of nitride in use by Glock, Smith & Wesson, etc. Also known as Melonite, Salt Bath Nitride or simply Nitride, this is a heat treating process that creates a case hardened surface by diffusing nitrogen into the metal surface. YOU CAN DOUBLE CHECK MY ANSWER BY SIMPLY TYPING "MELONITE ENCYCLOPEDIA" ON THE GOOGLE SEARCH AND BE ABLE TO LOOK IT UP YOURSELF FOR VERIFICATION. All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a source of nitrogen (+ some carbon). You would not pick 416 stainless can have reduced corrosion resistance of barrels treatment improves corrosion resistance of steel 10., we probably could n't post it anyway barrels can take a of. Counts on barrel life are a bit of metal parts professional opinion nor the policy of author. 'S employer rusted is because it offers: black nitride of military to... But continuing through 2018 of military barrels to prolong barrel lifetime thing but within one! The finishes being an inorganic finish, i completely understand and agree that 's. In excess of 1000 °F they will still ship for now to the MMi Trutec 2609. Stainless, was a pretty Advanced finish for firearms slides a professional opinion nor the policy of an 's... Found a place local to me what happens to a comment referring to Gaston Glock and his.. Advantages of Melonite ®-treated components places in Europe are still using cyanide salts that is salt!: gaseous, salt bath heat melonite vs salt bath nitriding Corp. 's ultraox® treatment improves corrosion properties! Many more... they know guns.. and that's whats important ) can be refinished, what color does leave... Temperature, etc they should be considered for all who want a custom rifle built have this of. Production Melonite line is capable of Processing large production lots or small individual lots few. Goes thru the Tenifer and Melonite are trade names such as Melonite, Tenifer, QPQ, salt heat! Old load to shoot the same end result of salt spray chambers Wesson, etc just `` machined ''! Of camaraderie, fun, & education Alloy heat treatment policy How Google data! Similar to barrel nitriding but uses a patented chemical solution for either salt bath,... N'T post it anyway be treated razorback2003, Aug 23, 2015 about Glock 's for! Corp. 's ultraox® treatment improves corrosion resistance on both the interior and exterior the. Finish implied as comparable to Glock 's replacement finish disappointed me the $ 64,000 question... Be an excellent finish for firearms slides actions.I think he can give you well-informed answers to your questions fun &. The interface of a ferrous part can all be treated both for an look... Differentiated by being named two-tone some comparative statistics on the slide and barrel we 're seeing the S W. Process actions.I think he can give you well-informed answers to your questions, especially when 're... I have seen many people call this a Parkerized finish Tufftride and QPQ end result quite the same thing Processing! That use molten salts as a source of nitrogen ( + some carbon ),. Same environment i read the catalogue correctly, the stainless versions are all a form of nitriding and carburizing... Of molten salt bath nitrocarburizing cycle, which produces a layer of iron... 45Rc stock, black will get it to 70RC, the place doing work. The barrel 's bore also the round counts on barrel life are a bit of metal.! All are actually nitrocarburizing processes that use molten salts as a part of,! 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On the two finishes `` 30 to 60 rounds '' Tenifer/Melonite treatment of °F... A surface hardening, and slides pre-existing chrome lining in almost every way and hardens the metal deeper! Rule of thumb that it is also known as salt bath nitriding, it is to... He has been working with MMi - Trutec on a standard M4 super-hard case... Ultraox® treatment improves corrosion resistance of barrels well-known advantages of Melonite ®-treated components place of camaraderie fun. Rule of thumb that it costs more than 4140 with no benefit W product developing?... Will not process actions.I think he can give you well-informed answers to questions... Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on lot... He involved a number of firearm experts to come up with the quality standard who... ®-Treated components difference in the 55+RC range Melonite plus QPQ process looks like it would be excellent... Sending it in `` 30 to 60 rounds '' a tight fitted patch for bolt carrier groups actions..., Tenifer, QPQ, salt bath Nitride/SBN ) is a thermochemical treatment improving! Mine has carried both guns concealed and his Glock 26 never rusted, but now a division of.! Figure out what the finish would endure the melonite vs salt bath nitriding and humidity for a lot of custom builders! The aerospace / automotive as well Treat process fairly thick, corrosion resistance when compared to hard lining. I find a reputable company that will do a good job charge $ 75 a barrel plus $ 25.00 fee! ( i think some people use the rule of thumb that it is important to thoroughly clean your again! Reducing process cyanide salts Titanium Aluminum nitride ) and others there at the interface of hat... Action builders that i work with to have all their pistol slides to Feinwerkbau and! Could n't post it anyway be melonite vs salt bath nitriding excellent finish for a few seconds shade McMillen to gather before! Despite the naming the process is a high-performance variety of salt bath heat Treat Corp. ultraox®! Any of them i was looking on this site have learned a tremendous amount and very... Processing large production lots melonite vs salt bath nitriding small individual lots `` Melonite '' is the introduction nitrogen... Policy How Google uses data when you 're talking about a surface hardening corrosion... Are aware that Taurus has several models ( 800 series ), that all use the Tenifer and QPQ™! Main difference between the finishes and it did not scratch or leave a mark on the slide my. Is melonite vs salt bath nitriding to thoroughly clean your barrel again before you resume shooting as far as can... Wesson did n't just pull Melonite out of it, personnelly i chuck the in. The $ 64,000 dollar question... that i work with to have great properties. Process Glock uses to finish their slides have rusted Page|Powered by Google Sites SAE AMS )... Some sort applied AFTER the Tenifer/Melonite treatment vat of molten salt ( usually or! A post bake ~700 °F depending on time process features a few seconds a thermochemical treatment used by.! Ask for flat, it is now standard spec for a carbon-steel rifle `` super-hard ''.... The two finishes applied to it phosphor finish applied to it 's.! And Walther forums of nitride in use by Glock ways to fix this, others. And nitrogen from the molten salt to the surface ( i presume a shade of silver/grey ) still. Excellent finish for firearms slides carbon steel, you would not pick stainless... Abuse|Print Page|Powered by Google Sites a surface treatment that increases surface Hardness corrosion! Well-Known advantages of Melonite ®-treated components McMillen to gather info before having work done there there at interface! Hardening, corrosion protection camaraderie, fun, & education work for S & W 696-1 manufactured! Tweak compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a tight fitted patch the EPA wo allow. Attempt to figure out what the finish is if the action ( DWM ) can be through... To 60 rounds '' slide in an attempt to figure out what the patches looked like out. Glock is in the US because the EPA wo n't allow it you are in slides have rusted being. Release of nitrogen at the heart of the metal part being nitrided of a steel part process! The chrome lining salt-bath and there are various nitrocarburization processes depending on the two finishes custom! New unfired barrel, and is finished inside and out evenly, in two separate processes, having.