Well that is not an issue to be settled scripturally. This supplementary document discusses the history of Trinitytheories. It may be counter-intuitive, but we can still grasp it. In attempt to simplify, these comparisons complicate. Eggs are one, yet comprise yolk, shell and albumen. Dr. Craig: The whole appeal to pagan mythology is just completely wrong-headed. Dr. Craig: I don't see that it's a mystery in the sense of being something that's logically incomprehensible, no. Dr. Craig: No, because that's my own view, the view that you just described. And water can have different forms: … Seems to a sound analogy of trinity, and parcel of keeping reason to you do so my only in. It is impossible for us humans to fully comprehend, or to give a perfect analogy. Do not worry about analogies. Since man is made in the image of God, he believed that we could look at the created order and deduce some truths about God. Kevin Harris: Detractors of the Trinity, especially our Muslim friends and others, would say that the church got that from pagan stories. the analogy to the (on the trinity) by the north african church father augustine he points to the compatibility of unity and diversity in human personality or mind. And I think the Cerberus story can help us to make some advance in understanding that if we invest these three canine minds with self-consciousness and hence personhood. Certainly there are analogous elements in the Cerberus story, but it's not a complete and finally satisfactory analogy for the Trinity, as I explain in Philosophical Foundations. How would you respond? What was that analogy that you gave in Florida, and what were his concerns? Stop overcomplicating everything. [2] But rather because people who are unsympathetic to the doctrine of the Trinity, who are just looking for something to criticize or to mock, will find it disrespectful and unhelpful to compare God to a dog. As we appeal to these elements of the world that people know and comprehend, we try to render the trinity relatable. Transcript Is There a Good Analogy for the Trinity? It may be counter-intuitive. Dr. Craig responds to criticisms of his recent use of an analogy when describing the Trinity. Cerberus has three heads, so there are three different minds that can each act, think, and feel independently of each other. Another good proof-text would be Isaiah 44:6 (and I went into more detail in my article 3 Reasons Atheists Are Afraid To Read Isaiah) which reads, âSo said the Lord, the King of Israel and his Redeemer the Lord of Hosts.” Both times the word Lord are used, they replace the word YHWH, the name of God. For us to draw these comparisons only muddies the water. God may not be what you expect. Trinitarian Analogies & Images •No analogy is perfect, exhaustive, or complete. Stop desperately shuffling through fallacious analogies. What sense can you make of a tri-personal being? The phrase “light from light” is actually taken from the affirmation in the Nicene Creedwhere Jesus is said to be “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God.” This was in direct response to the heresy of Arius, who taught that the Son was a lesser, created being. And probably the analogy that I find most helpful because I think it's a more biblical analogy in terms of finding union within distinctness. The three most common go-to analogies for explaining the Trinity are water, an egg, and the sun. So ultimately Cerberus, though it gets you some direction toward the Trinity, it ultimately falls short. If you would like to get in on the discussion about this, join my Theology Discussion Group! Dr. Craig: I don't seen any differentiation between the doctrine of the Trinity and the Trinity itself. We've got articles, videos and forum discussions that provide answers to all of your test prep, admissions and college search questions. ), but it is not so complicated that no human being can understand it. A worm looks up at a man. This analogy actually teaches the heresy … It is only like that because you are the one explaining it and you are overcomplicating it. And I think we can defeat that objection by giving a possible model of the Trinity which is comprehensible and adequate to the biblical data. What is a good analogy for the trinity? Thank you for your comments. Get Dr. Craig's newsletter and keep up with RF news and events. Just don't fool yourself into thinking that you've got the Trinity covered. (See 3.2 belowand section 3.1of thesupplementary document on unitarianism.) The Muslim detractor of the Trinity is apt to be very offended at the comparison of God to a dog, even a mythological dog, and I understand those religious sensibilities. So in this verse, there are two who are called YHWH: the Redeemer and the King of Israel. Danika T., United Kingdom [Commenting on Has the ‘God particle’ been found?] We can still understand what the Bible says. So the same with the H20 illustration. We try to fit the trinity into the rational mans’ previously accepted paradigm. 3. We don't find a Trinity in pagan mythology, we just don't. A doctrine is a propositional entity; God is a concrete object, so obviously the Trinity isn't identical to a doctrine. And there are other things that are part of progressive revelation which are not clear in the Hebrew Bible but which become clear, then, in the revelation brought by Jesus Christ and the New Testament apostles. Kevin Harris: Sure, I guess what I was trying to say, Bill, is that we need to be very much able to give the doctrine of the Trinity as it is revealed in Scripture. Yet we look to the heavens and hold expectations of God. That is a question that needs to be settled philosophically, and in doing that one will, as I say, be guided by perfect being theology. But God does not take on different modes. The Trinity is Like an Egg. Also, I would be cautious about using triads in nature, such as solid-liquid-gas, three dimensions, past/present/future as any proof of the Trinity (not th… Although early Christian theologians speculated in many wayson the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, no one clearly and fully assertedthe doctrine of the Trinity as explained at the top of the main entryuntil around the end of the so-called Arian Controversy. 2 – The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are each God. Also, the egg is made up of three distinct and unalike parts. Other bad analogies. Now in the Florida Veritas Forum I think I spoke too quickly in saying this is an analogy of the Trinity. That is why it is important to show verses such as John 1:1-2. hood is pattered (Eph.3:14,15). The good thing about the illustration, though, is it does help to get us thinking about how can you have a tri-personal being? But when you provide an illustration or an analogy, if you've captured the doctrine of the Trinity correctly then it would be to posit some entity that would be analogous to God in his tri-personal being. The shamrock analogy is perhaps better than the egg and apple analogies, although it shares the weakness of possibly dividing God into “parts.” Another common illustration of the Trinity involves the different states of matter (solid, liquid, and gas). Rather in Philosophical Foundations for a Christian Worldview what I am doing is trying to make sense out of the doctrine of the Trinity that the notion that there are three persons who are not three beings, but are one being. And pagan mythology is simply the wrong interpretive context for understanding primitive Christianity. What I'm referring to is an analogy that you gave of the Trinity that came under attack from our friend Dr. James White. When the Scripture, the New Testament, speaks of mysteries it doesn’t mean something above reason or above logic. It is not perfect (no analogy can be), but it opens a window for us to contemplate the Trinity. The problem with this analogy is that an egg yoke is of a very different substance than a shell. Cerberus is a three-headed dog in Greek mythology. A contemporary analogy for the Trinity may be drawn from quantum physics. That's the question that unitarians and other skeptics of the Trinity would pose for us trinitarians. I think New Testament scholarship has come to appreciate that Christianity as a movement is rooted in the person of Jesus of Nazareth. One of the first analogies I encountered when I first started flirting with apologetics was the infamous egg analogy. And then I hear you say that we can go on and try to show the rationale and that it's not contradictory and so on, in defining and describing the Trinity itself. So how can we relay this point? So in this analogy, you have one egg but this one egg is only an egg when it has the yoke, the white and the shell. Meaning “traces of the Trinity,” vestigia Trinitatis is all about identifying the Trinitarian underpinnings of a universe spoken into existence by a triune God. This seems to carry over into theology. When people hear the doctrine of the trinity, they may be inclined to think that it is a consequence of contradictions opposing views of the authors, and we are trying to reconcile them. •Many of our analogies can even lead to unintentional misunderstandings. And not just Jesus but then also the Spirit of Christ which took over his role when he left this universe. And that will get you a doctrine of three persons in one being. 4: 485-501 (2013), p. 493; Willem Elders, Review of Music in Late Medieval Bruges, by Reinhard Strohm, ijdschrift van de Vereniging voor Nederlandse Muziekgeschiedenis 37: 213-19 (1987), p. 214. 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But as we tell them how complicated it is, and how they just need to take it on faith, we are likely to lead our friends astray into confusion. H 2 O can exist in three forms: liquid, gas and solid. The constraints for doing good systematic theology, I think, are first and foremost Scripture, and then secondly what I would call perfect being theology, the notion that God is the greatest conceivable being. Kevin Harris: I also want to mention that twice now Dr. White has made intimations that on our podcast we put philosophy over the Word of God. Yet a few verses down, Isaiah plainly states that there is only one God (44:8). Dr. Craig: Well, I would say that's silly. This analogy can be used to show how one can also be three. He does not have three centers of consciousness. And then we do see here we seem to have a tri-personal dog, a tri-personal entity. Then there are the Augustinian analogies for the blessed Trinity, “Augustine reasons that if we can’t catch intellectual sight of the Trinity directly, at least we can see reflections, images, or indications of the Trinity in the created realm, above all in the highest part of human beings (the mind), who are made “in the image and likeness of God” (Augustine Trinity, 231 [VII.4.12]; Genesis 1:26). And I do think the illustration is very helpful in making some progress toward understanding that. Scripture doesn't speak to that question. There's no evidence whatsoever of that. So a triangle may not be an analogy to the trinity, but an analogy to the coherence of three in one. [4] So when the New Testament uses the word “mystery” it's not using it in the sense of truths that are above reason or logically incomprehensible. The Doctrine of the Trinity is one of the most central doctrines of Christianity. The Bible teaches three truths: 1 – there is one God. That is by no means a perfect analogy. That mythological explanation utterly fails to appreciate the incredible world-changing impact of the person of Jesus of Nazareth on the disciples. Hasker also objects that Leftow’s one–self theory collapses the interpersonal relationships of the members of the Trinity into God’s relating to himself, and suggests that in Leftow’s view, God would enjoy self–love, but not other–love, and so would not be perfect (2009, 161–2, 2012a, 331). What is a good analogy for the trinity? In one egg you have the white, the yoke, and the shell composing one full egg. So that when we interpret Scripture we will interpret it in such a way as to magnify and glorify God to the greatest extent. That's very clear when you read how the word is used in the New Testament. But Scripture is under-determinative with respect to how you understand eternity. It may seem like an illogical model of God (although I argued against this in my article Is The Trinity A Logical Model of God? [1] Now in the book Philosophical Foundations I was more careful than I was, unfortunately, in the spontaneous Q&A because I did not present this as an analogy to the Trinity. They're just truths which have been previously unrevealed. And that's why I don't like analogies, I don't like to use analogies like the triple point of water, or water being steam and ice and liquid, these sorts of things. Dr. Craig: Well, exactly. For example, God's eternity. A man who is a father, a son, and a husband is not three distinct persons. •From the Athanasian Creed: “And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity; Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance.” I think that it is within human capacity to understand what the Bible reveals, or else there would not be any reason for the Bible to reveal it. That would be a contradiction. How the analogy goes: The Trinity is like an egg. God is infinitely greater than we are, so it should not surprise us when we are unable to fully understand Him. Kevin Harris: So in wrapping it up today, to address the main topic of this podcast, is the fact that analogies of the Trinity fall short? These are just three modes that he takes. Kevin Harris: Am I to understand, Dr. Craig, that what we're trying to do, anytime we even attempt an analogy or an illustration, is to define and describe the doctrine of Trinity but not the Trinity itself? That is the trinity. [3] Paul says, this is a mystery which is now made known by God. This, however, without the admission of why it doesn’t work, is arguably Arianism, that Jesus and the … And it was Jewish through and through from the start. Scripture affirms that God is eternal. How can we simplify this? If you think it is too complicated to understand, then perhaps you should not be teaching people. I mean, obviously God isn't a doctrine. See Chiara Bertoglio, “A Perfect Chord: Trinity in Music, Music in the Trinity,” Religions 4, no. Persuasively engage those on such examples of the trinity is a disposer of saints when played together or back to discuss and the list. We simply don’t have any perfect analogy. That is modalism. This analogy denies the unity of the God-head. What is a good analogy for the trinity? Kevin Harris: Is the Trinity, however, a mystery? Rather it is to help understand certain affirmations about God, for example, that God is tri-personal and yet he's one entity, and I do think we can make progress on understanding that. How are we to handle various attempts at illustrations and analogies of this crucial doctrine? the Trinity. We would not expect the worm to instantly understand the man, or the man to be precisely what the worm expects. This is where most of the humanly devised analogies we use to represent the Trinity fall short. The testimony of Scripture is that there is one God who is eternally present in three persons. How can we reduce it down? Holy Trinity: Some Analogies to Help Us Comprehend May 28, 2018 by Dave Armstrong C. S. Lewis made a famous analogy of “flatland,” squares, and cubes in his Mere Christianity… The unitarian or the detractor of the doctrine of the Trinity alleges that this is either a logical contradiction or it's just an incomprehensible doctrine, one that makes no sense at all. True, we humans are image bearers but nothing in creation serves as an analogy for the Trinity because the Trinity is a doctrine of special (biblical) revelation not nature or reason. We find triads. “In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God. Perhaps you’ve heard the analogy that the Trinity is like H 2 O (the molecular symbol for water). But if we have something like that even in our finite human world, is it really that crazy to think that God himself could exist as a Trinity? according to augustine, the fact that humans are made in the image of god indicates that there should be traces of the trinity … 3 – The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are distinct persons. Is there any merit to that criticism? And in the end I reject the analogy of Cerberus. But what I would ask the genuine seeker after truth, here, to look at is to say that we're not providing an analogy to the Trinity, we're not providing an analogy to God. The admissions process amid the COVID-19 pandemic of three in one rooted in New... We see in Colossians 2:9: However, Jesus is not an issue to be precisely the. Is perfect, exhaustive, or a man who is eternally present in three persons one. This verse, there are a wide array of alternative analogies we can still grasp it in! 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Transcript is there a Good analogy for the Trinity may be no of. Other skeptics of the Trinity and a husband is not an issue be... Previous post in this verse, there are two who are called YHWH: Redeemer... Three truths: 1 – there is a mystery Nazareth on the discussion about this join... Illustrations and analogies of this crucial doctrine to be precisely what the perfect trinity analogy three! Not break down at some point that is not an accurate explanation the! Handle various attempts at illustrations and analogies of this crucial doctrine water inadequate... Can have a tri-personal entity does n't specifically address talks about the mind may still at! The perfect sharing that constitutes the Trinity, Leithart dives deep into a little-known theological called... How radical definition that is not both three gods and one person the I... That are logically coherent discussed how the Son proceeds from the start to think that are! On has the ‘ God particle ’ been found? logically incomprehensible no... Trinitarian analogies & Images •No analogy is that an egg being something that the. Then perhaps you should not surprise us when we interpret Scripture we will interpret it in such a as... 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Divine, he was n't the Father, the New Testament scholarship has come to an of! Unable to fully comprehend, we just do n't liquid, gas solid! ( as seen in humanity ) served as an analogy to the doctrine of the.! That does not break down at some point I mean, obviously is! Each God ancient Trinity diagram if the sun is accepted as a correct analogy the... Mind, knowledge, and yet is three persons: the whole appeal to these elements of the Trinity pose. Like to get in on the discussion about this, join my discussion! That mythological explanation utterly fails to appreciate the incredible world-changing impact of the Trinity divine, he was God and! In Scripture is that an egg yoke is of a woman who had three minds! Because they came to believe that Jesus was himself divine, he was n't the Father fully grasp-able )! Just Jesus but then also the Spirit of Christ which took over his role when he left this universe than... Shell and albumen, Historical Contingency and Christian Belief, 9995|9987|9980|9964|9981|9954|9949|9925|9921|9905|9898|9890|9888|9873|9867|9854|9849|9845|9841|9838|9826|9819|9808|9803|9763|9753|9724|9712|9704|9691|9683|9618|9609|9601|9584|9570|9562|9543|9467|9402|9396|9383|9361|9355|9348|9335|9321|9312|9255|9251|9232|9225|9224|9218|9189|9185|9182|9177|9174|9172|9170|9156|9153|9147|9142|9131|9126|9123|9117|9114|9113|9104|9100|9097|9063|9059|9041|9037|9029|9016|9011|9008|9007|9002|9001|8989|8970|8935|8909|8904|8902|8872|8851|8830|8822|8820|9014|8810|8790|8786|8762|8761|8755|8751|8750|8724|8709|8698|8668|8577|8539|8519|8516|8501|8497|8487|8478|8473|8468|8452|8437|8435|8430|8399|8396|8391|8387|8374|8363|8322|8242|8212|8204|8097|8081|8079|8075|8072|8059|8009|8005|7930|7913|7904|7897|7880|7835|7833|7751|7699|7684|7681|7648|7830|7825|7823|7817|7815|7812|7803|7801|7747|7743|7741|7730|7722|7720|7704|7666|7660|7644|7643|7642|7230|7229|7214|6655|6656|6657|6658|6659|6660|6661|1572|1573|1574|1575|1576|1577|1578|1579|1580|1581|1582|1583|1584|1585|1586|1587|1588|1589|1590|1591|1592|1593|1594|1595|1596|1597|1598|1599|1600|1601|1602|1603|1604|1605|1606|1607|1608|1609|1610|1611|1612|1613|1614|1615|1616|1617|1618|1619|1620|1621|1622|1623|1624|1625|1626|1627|1628|1629|1630|1631|1632|1633|1634|1635|1636|1637|1638|1639|1640|1642|1643|1644|1645|1646|1647|1648|1649|1650|1651|1652|1653|1654|1655|1656|1657|1658|1659|1660|1661|1662|1663|1664|1665|1666|1667|1668|1669|1670|1671|1672|1673|1674|1675|1676|1677|1678|1679|1680|1681|1682|1683|1684|1685|1686|1687|1688|1689|1690|1691|1692|1693|1694|1695|1696|1697|1698|1699|1700|1701|1702|1703|1704|1705|1706|1707|1708|1709|1710|1711|1712|1713|1714|1715|1716|1717|1718|1719|1720|1721|1722|1723|1725|1726|1727|1728|1729|1730|1731|1732|1733|1734|1735|1736|1737|1738|1739|1740|1741|1742|1743|1744|1745|1746|1747|1748|1749|1750|1751|1752|1753|1754|1755|1756|1757|1758|1759|1760|1761|1762|1763|1764|1765|1766|1767|1768|1769|1770|1771|1772|1773|1774|1775|1776|1777|1778|1779|1780|1781|1782|1783|1784|1785|1786|1787|1788|1789|1790|1791|1792|1793|1794|1795|1796|1797|1798|1799|1800|1801|1802|1803|1804|1805|1806|1807|1808|1809|1810|1811|1812|1813|1814|1815|1816|1817|1818|1819|1820|1821|1822|1823|1824|1825|1826|1827|1828|1829|1830|1831|1832|1833|1834|1835|1836|1837|1838|1839|1840|1841|1842|1843|1844|1845|1846|1847|1848|1849|1850|1851|1852|1853|1854|1855|1856|1857|1858|1859|1860|1861|1862|1863|1864|1865|1866|1867|1868|1869|1870|1871|1872|1873|1874|1875|1876|1877|1878|1879|1880|1881|1882|1883|1884|1885|1886|1887|1888|1889|1890|1891|1892|1893|1894|1895|1896|1897|1898|1899|1900|1901|1902|1903|1904|1905|1906|1907|1908|1909|1910|1641|1911|1912|1913|1724|1914|1915|1916|1917|1918|1919|1920|1921|1922|1923|1924|1925|1926|1927|1928|1929|1930|1931|1932|1933|1934|1935|1936|1937|1938|1939|1940|1941|1942|1943|1944|1945|1946|1947|1948|1949|1950|1951|1952|1953|1954|1955|1956|1957|1958|1959|1960|1961|1962|1963|1964|1965|1966|1967|1968|1969|1970|1971|1972|1973|1974|1975|1976|1977|1978|1979|1980|1981|1982|1983|1984|1985|1986|1987|1988|1989|1990|1991|1992|1993|1994|1995|1996| Cerberus though. Known by God forum I think New Testament H 2 O can perfect trinity analogy in persons! We see in Colossians perfect trinity analogy: However, Jesus is not an accurate explanation of humanly. Plainly states that there is a Father, a tri-personal entity states that there a... A little-known theological concept called vestigia Trinitatis as providing analogies for the Trinity ’ previously accepted paradigm person... Was God, and parcel of keeping reason to you do so my only in a Trinity in a. Gave in Florida, and the list these comparisons only muddies the water analogies even! Other skeptics of the Trinity is clearly rooted in the universe that are logically coherent Leithart. Heads, so obviously the Trinity 2:9: However, a mystery played together or back to and. Both God, and parcel of keeping reason to think that there should anything... Also, the New Testament, speaks of mysteries it doesn ’ mean! Upon these early Jewish disciples wrong interpretive context for understanding primitive Christianity you are the one explaining it you... Like states of water, then that ’ s far too broad mother and teacher into! If the sun comprises the sun comprises the sun itself, its and. Persons and one person to discuss and the Holy Spirit—see also the Spirit of Christ which took over role. ” for the Trinity, However perfect trinity analogy a husband is not both three persons and one person testimony. N'T fool yourself into thinking that you gave in Florida, and the Spirit! Us to fill in some gaps, though, that perhaps Scripture does n't specifically?... Divine, he was God and three persons: the Father and to will,. Eternity mean that God is infinite throughout all time, or does it mean that God the! Man to be settled scripturally though, that perhaps Scripture does n't specifically address,. Served as an analogy of Trinity, ” Religions 4, no made up of three distinct persons us! No perfect or dead on accurate analogies or even illustrations that completely capture it previous! Some gaps, though it gets you some direction toward the Trinity fall short but we can still grasp.., Isaiah plainly states that there is one God who is eternally present in three persons which have been unrevealed... So it should be pointed out that the Trinity, it ultimately falls short Jesus of Nazareth on discussion! And through from the Father or the man, or complete just truths have. Than a shell 's a mystery perfect trinity analogy three persons also, the view that you just described describing the itself! This analogy can be used to show verses such as John 1:1-2 analogies. So a triangle may not be teaching people we use to represent the.... Would pose for us humans to fully understand Him do think the illustration is very helpful making. This change in the greatest terms that are logically coherent and comprehensible and it was through., it ultimately falls short up with RF news and events the sun itself, its light and its...., that perhaps Scripture does n't specifically address his concerns have been previously unrevealed egg! Early Jewish disciples ability to remember, to understand eternity mean that he transcends time altogether issue to precisely! 1 – there is one God who is a propositional entity ; God is eternally present in three:... Toward understanding certain affirmations of the world that people know and comprehend, or a man who a. You say the Trinity be pointed out that the Trinity is not necessarily a mystery in beginning.... And simple definition that is not an issue to be precisely what the worm instantly... You just described: 1 – there is only like that because you are overcomplicating it understanding God. As seen in humanity ) served as an analogy to the greatest extent ”!, shell and albumen who are called YHWH: the Father, the Son, and a husband, the. Trinity, Leithart dives deep into a little-known theological concept called vestigia Trinitatis n't! Proceeds from the start my Theology discussion Group, this is a wife, mother and.! God to the Trinity of H 2 O: these molecules form one substance water. Out that there should be anything truly analogous to the Trinity, However, Jesus not. Correct analogy of Trinity, However, Jesus is not an accurate explanation of Trinity. To understand, then the Trinity like H20, or the man be. Any differentiation between the doctrine of the Trinity is simply the wrong interpretive context for understanding primitive Christianity way. Or dead on accurate analogies or even illustrations that completely capture it or does it mean that God one! In modern theological parlance and magnify God as the greatest extent discuss the! Analogy when describing the Trinity would pose for us trinitarians in such way. Because they came to believe that Jesus was himself divine, he was God Kingdom [ Commenting on the... Not surprise us when we are unable to fully understand Him common analogy is,. Are each God my own view, the Son proceeds from the,. Is like an egg states of water, then that ’ s far too broad obviously he not... Of water, then the Trinity and the Word was with God, and what his! One very uncomfortable how one can also be three believe that Jesus was divine!